In July of 1519, Martin Luther was debating Dr. Eck.
Martin Luther was the founder of the reformation.
Dr. Eck was the most staunch defender of the catholic faith at the time.
During the course of the debate, both men were coming down to their final appeals to the people.
Martin Luther’s final argument was essentially that, “Dr. Eck doesn’t know a thing about Scripture and isn’t willing to listen to a thing about Scripture.“
Dr. Eck’s refutation of Luther’s accusation was so devastating that it rendered Luther speechless and ultimately caused him to lose the debate.
What he said is matter of historical record and here it is.
“If you turn from the church to the Scriptures alone, then you must keep the Sabbath with the Jews, which has been kept since the beginning of the world.”–Dr. Eck’s Enchiridion pp. 78-79
You can almost see Dr. Eck twisting the knife as he said those words.
Dr. Eck had a good point.
Martin Luther was accusing Dr. Eck of not knowing anything about Scripture.
He was accusing the catholic church of going in the wrong direction by not following him in the reformation.
But as Dr. Eck pointed out, Luther himself was not keeping the Sabbath.
And if he really wanted to go by SOLA SCRIPTURA, then he needed to start keeping the Sabbath.
Needless to say, Martin Luther lost that debate.
Luther understood that the church is not under the 10 C’s, which includes the Sabbath law.
Read Galatians and understand that no Christian is under the law, much less the 4th Commandment.
However, this does not mean that the Christian is lawless. Not at all. Rather, they follow the law of Christ. Whatever he teaches about the Sabbath is law for the church.
Sunday is not correct. Only the 7th day can be the day for the New Covenant Sabbath. But this Gospel Sabbath is NOT the 4th Commandment, where work is sinful. Jesus promoted an ACTIVE, guilt free, 7th day Sabbath where activity was the focus and not rest.
It is time for the church to understand the correct, 7th day, Gospel Sabbath, aka, the Lord’s Day.
Respect your opinion but totally disagree.
The thogical facts do not support your position.
Gal. 3:23-25 But before faith came, we were kept in custody under the law, being shut up to the faith which was later to be revealed. Therefore the Law has become our tutor to lead us to Christ, so that we may be justified by faith. But now that faith has come, we are no longer under a tutor.
Gal. 5:18 But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under the Law.
While Sunday Sabbath is myth, so too this idea that Christians are under the 4th Commandment.
There is a 7th day, Gospel Sabbath, but few have any knowledge about Jesus active and guilt free Sabbath. Especially the Jews. They have always been blind to the Spirit, unable to comprehend the teachings of Christ. Sad.
I don’t think that they are the only ones who are blind, friend. Jesus did set apart work on God’s set apart day. That has always been lawful. That is why the priests were blameless — because they set the Sabbath apart by offering twice the sacrifices ad the other six days.
That still does not entitle one to lawlessly treat God’s holy day any kind of way they want to. That was not Jesus’ point. Jesus’ point was for His followers to keep the Sabbath completely set apart in everyway — including glorifying God on none other than His holy day. This was done by healing people in the name and power of God — which is not just any kind of good work, it was a truly holy work. Holy work does not desecrate the Sabbath, secular work does. So does “our own ways, our own pleasures, and our own words.” That hasnt changed. This is what many SDAs fail to understand.
For it is not those who hear the law who are righteous in God’s sight, but it is those who obey the law who will be declared righteous.
-Romans 2:13
And yet no one will be justifed by the works of another Law known simply as “the Law.”
The key to understanding this is knowing that one Law–the 613 “handwriting decrees” or “commandments in ordinances”–was placed outside the Ark and the Covenant Law was set indside the Ark.
The one inside of the Ark is in heaven as we speak (Rev. 11:19; 15:5). God also had two sets of the Covenant Law placed inside of the Ark. The broken set represented the carnal covenant — because the flesh is not subject to the spiritual Law of God nor can it be.
So fleshly Israel was predestined to break that covenant no matter how much effort they put in the flesh.
The unbroken set represents the spiritual covenant — the one where God writes His law not on tablets of stone, but rather on the tablet of our heart, so that we will be complelled to obey His Laws.
A Law called “the Law” was added because of transgressions, said Paul. Yet Paul also said “where there is no Law there is no transgression.” You do the math, friend.
There is a spiritual Law and a carnal Law. The Mosaic Law is called carnal in Hebrews 7 and 9 I believe and Paul calls the Covenant Law spiritual somewhere in the book of Romans. So that on ots own right tells us that there are two laws in play. We are not under the full Law of Moses and all its carnal ordinances – – that was the subject of Galatians.
And yet we know that God is a Spirit and we know that that same Spirit rested on the seventh day — therefore, the seventh day provides spiritual rest and is a part of the spiritual Law.
I would also like to say for the record that the true Gospel is the current arrival of the Sovereign kingdom of God through the Covenantal Blood of Christ. A divine and Soveriegn Kingdom is established on the divine and Soveriegn commandments of a Divine and Soveriegn Monarch — not the lawlessness of anarchy.
Christ did not die so that we could stay in sin (transgression of the Law) so that Grace would abound — on the contrary, God literally has forbidden this kind of behavior.
Jesus came to save us from our sins (Matt. 1:21) not merely and exclusively the consequences thereof, like most teach.
I hope this helps.
Here are the verses:
Who is made, not after the **law of a carnal commandment**, but after the power of an endless life.
-Hebrews 7:16
consisting only in foods and drinks and various washings–**ordinances of the flesh** being imposed until the time of reformation.
-Hebrews 9:10
We know that **the law is spiritual**; but I am unspiritual, sold as a slave to sin.
-Romans 7:14
Also guys,
there is no “Gospel Sabbath,” nor is there a specific “Christian Sabbath.” These terms are myths as well.
There is just simply “the Sabbath.” The Sabbath was made for all of mankind (Mark 2:27) and *any* man who keeps it will be blessed (Isaiah 56:2).The Gentiles who bind themselves to the Body of the Lord should not think that God will exclude them from the duties of His people (Isaiah 56:3) because we too are Gods chosen people (Col. 3:12) — for not everyone who descended from Israel is Israel.
The Sabbath was made for every image of God so that God’s images might fully reflect the full image of God — for this is the sole duty of mankind (Eccl. 12:13) not just the Jews.
The Sabbath is the most important and most moral commandment of all time! How, one must ask. How can the Sabbath be the most moral commandment in the Law? I’ll tell you:
We are to keep one day holy so that we might learn to be holy and blameless everyday, for Jesus is coming back for the true church without spot or blemish.
How do we walk blamelessly? David said Blessed is the man whose walk is blameless; who walks according to the Law of the Lord (Psalm 119:1).
Indeed, we keep one day holy so that we can learn to be holy and blameless everyday — and yet the day is indeed of dire importance because this is a matter of faithfulness, obedience, and diligent imitation of God. We are called to be imitators of God (Eph. 5:1). How can we do that if we ignore the Testimony of His character? How is that Christian?
If you truly respect the Sabbath and fear the Lord and His righteous need to judge transgression, then you will be compelled to keep the Sabbath completely holy (sinless and set apart from the other six days in every way).
For if you transgress the other nine commandmens on that day you are condemned as a double transgressor. Yet there is now no condemnation for those ABIDING in Christ (the Vine; the Word).
The Sabbath is our model to learn how to repent and abstain from sin in the power of the Lord. It is our model for true holiness. This is why Isaiah compared keeping the Sabbath to abstaining from all evil (Isaiah 56:2).
The Sabbath even reveals idols in our life. Are you willing to deny yourself and give up your own ways, your own pleasures, and your own words for a specified 24 hours for God’s sake? Are you willing to give up things like electricity, running water, driving cars, using money, and other such secular events and activities during the duration of your Friday night/Saturday?
If you cannot give these things up for a certain day so as to focus strictly on the presence of God, then you have allowed, in all honesty, things that are non-necessities to become gods that run your life!
The Sabbath gives us rest from the secular events and activities that enslave us during our week. It allows us to recharge and focus on what is truly important: God.
The Sabbath allows us to take a minute and ponder upon the wonders of Creation and to remember and glorify the One who Created everything around us. It allows us to remember our Deliverer and how He delivered us from the spiritual land of sin and death and out of the bondage thereof.
It is an essential part of our walk guys! Do not stiffen your neck. The stiffer the neck, the easier it is to break in two!
Pls leave Jesus out of the heresy that you spew. Whatever you say man don’t say what I think you’re trying to say. Jesus kept telling Law perfectly. Other than that his blood couldn’t have washed our sins. He did not get involved in work on the sabbath.
Matthew 5:17
Why should Jesus, the Lord of the Sabbath, be left out of a discussion about the Sabbath? That makes little sense. I suggest that you read the Sabbath teachings of Christ more carefully. In fact, you should also read the Genesis story more carefully. Because if you do, you will see that God worked on the 7th day and completed his creation.
I strongly disagree but that’s okay too, if you are a new covenant believer the law is in you! It’s written. On your heart and Ezekiel 36 tells us God will put His spirit in us and cause us to walk in His ways. Paul was very Torah observant and Saud the law is holy just and good. It’s about peace, prosperity, protection, and love. Not just a bunch of do’s and dont’s Jesus Himself said He came to fullfill(rightfully) interpret the law not destroy the law be legalism which is what they did in the 1st century. Then Matthew 6 and 7 he just teaches God’s law. It’s irrefutable.
Salvation came first by God’s grace alone. Then His law was given. Exodus 12 comes before exodus 20. God’s law is for a redeemed people not for the ungodly. The church needs to wake up. They are God’s feast not Jewish feast He gave them to the Jewish people to give to us! And that’s just priceless if you ask me. Stop the debate and just enjoy what our Heavenly father gave to us appointed times to be more intimate with Him. Is that too much to ask for. Their His appointed times, forever! And what He appoints He anoints!
And besides the sabbath was instituted before the law was even given.
God bless all of you my brothers and sisters in the Lord!
I am almost certain that Sin is the transgression of the law
Totally man!! In fact this is something I have never heard.
The church today is blind to the Gospel and the Gospel Sabbath. This is why few have a clear idea about what Jesus teaches in the NT.
Not under the Moral Law for justification but the 10 Commandments, including the 4th Commandment, are still binding on the justified believer for his sanctification. The law that Paul talks about as being fulfilled and thus abrogated by our Lord’s death and resurrection is the ceremonial law which was a shadow of better things to come. Israel’s judicial law also has no relevance for the New Testament believer. The Moral Law on the other hand, which charachterises God’s Holiness is Eternal.
Pray and come again
You so wrong. You misinterpret much of scripture because you lack……The Fear of YHWH. The Sabbath is the very eternal destination………Entering the Final Sabbath. Yehosua the Word is Lord of the Sabbath and He kept it, so did ALL disciples and early Christians. Sunday law is totally pagan Catholic
Seth Hall says June 10, 2018 at 9:39 pm
Seth said: I don’t think that they are the only ones who are blind, friend. Jesus did set apart work on God’s set apart day. That has always been lawful. That is why the priests were blameless — because they set the Sabbath apart by offering twice the sacrifices ad the other six days.
Tom said: I am not saying there is no 7th day Sabbath doctrine for the church, or that Sunday is the Christian Sabbath. Nor am I one that thinks there is no Sabbath or that the Sabbath is everyday. So please lower your defenses and consider the following theological facts:
1) Priests were not under the 4th Commandment law. The Jewish Priests were allowed to break the 4th Commandment because they had to work on the 7th day, –more so than on any other day. It would have been impossible to operate the Temple on the Sabbath if the priests followed the 4th Commandment. The Temple was a commercial religious enterprise where all manner of work takes place. So the rules were different for priests as compared with all other Jews. Why? Because the Gospel is above the law. Had any non-priest tried to do work, they would have been stoned to death for Sabbath breaking. But not the priests.
When it comes to a discussion about the Sabbath, It is very wrong to pretend that “work” does not mean work, or that there was Sabbath rest for the priesthood. The Temple PRIESTS WERE NOT UNDER THE 4TH COMMANDMENT LAW. They worked, and did not rest on the Sabbath.
This fact is important to understand. The Priests worked more on the 7th day, not less. They had NO REST from work on the 7th day. Thus they broke the Sabbath law, but were guiltless. Which is exactly what Jesus clearly stated:
Matt. 12:5 “Or have you not read in the Law, that on the Sabbath the priests in the temple break the Sabbath and are innocent?
The Gospel Sabbath of Christ is far more sophisticated than many understand. It is based on the Priesthood of all beleivers, not on the Law of Moses.
2) All Christians are Priests: Jesus, is the high priest, and all that follow him are priests of God. Both male and female. Jesus New Covenant Sabbath teaching reflects this change in the Two Covenants. The correct Christian Sabbath doctrine is active and guilt free, just like for the Temple priests. The NC Sabbath is not to be a resting, punitive, law based doctrine like in the Old Covenant for all the tribes except Levi. Just as the 4th Commandment did not apply to the Temple Priests, so to in Christian theology. Christians are not under the 4th Commandment. Period! In fact, no Christian is under any of the laws of Moses. Rather, they are under the law of Christ.
Heb. 8:1 Now the main point in what has been said is this: we have such a high priest, who has taken His seat at the right hand of the throne of the Majesty in the heavens,
Gal. 3:12 However, the Law is not of faith; on the contrary, “HE WHO PRACTICES THEM SHALL LIVE BY THEM.”
Gal. 6:2 Bear one another’s burdens, and thereby fulfill the law of Christ.
3) The New Covenant (7th day) Sabbath is different from the Old Covenant doctrine. It is a great mistake to think the Sabbath doctrine is the same in both Covenants. (The SDA’s make this mistake). While the 7th day is a creation based doctrine in both Covenants, the Sabbath of Moses in NOT the same as Jesus’ NC Sabbath doctrine. Same day, but very different doctrine. This is why there are so many Sabbath debates between Jesus and the Jews. Jesus is teaching an active, priestly type of NC Sabbath, where work is permitted without guilt on the 7th day. The Jews did not want such a radical change in the Priesthood or the Sabbath law. They refused Jesus NC Gospel reforms, choosing to try and maintain their OC ways.
4 No Resting Sabbath in NC: Jesus did not teach or observe the 4th Commandment: Nor did he rest on the Sabbath. Rather, he taught an active working Sabbath. This is why the theological leaders hated him and plotted his death. Jesus is not teaching the OC Sabbath of Moses, but rather the NC law of Christ about the Sabbath, which is based on the OC Priestly Sabbath.
John 9:16 Therefore some of the Pharisees were saying, “This man is not from God, because He does not keep the Sabbath.”
Seth said: That still does not entitle one to lawlessly treat God’s holy day any kind of way they want to. That was not Jesus’ point. Jesus’ point was for His followers to keep the Sabbath completely set apart in everyway — including glorifying God on none other than His holy day. This was done by healing people in the name and power of God — which is not just any kind of good work, it was a truly holy work. Holy work does not desecrate the Sabbath, secular work does. So does “our own ways, our own pleasures, and our own words.” That hasn’t changed. This is what many SDAs fail to understand.
Tom said: Jesus did not promote the 4th Commandment as you claim. You sound like the Jews that attacked Christ. They too placed the law above their Messiah. But Jesus is greater than Moses and the law. What Jesus teaches is what matters, not what Moses teaches. Moses is not the Son of God, nor can he or the law save. The Lord of the Sabbath clearly teaches an active, guilt free 7th day Sabbath doctrine in all four Gospels.
Jesus turned the 7th day Sabbath doctrine upside down for all to see. While he did not change the day, he changed it from a day of forced, punitive, rest to a day of Gospel Freedom– from the law. In the NC, it is not a sin to do secular work on the Sabbath. This is why Roman soldiers could join the church and still work on the 7th day. Also why slaves that became Christians did not have a problem having to work on the 7th day. They worked and did not feel guilty. The OC rules about no fires or cooking or doing anything (except priests) was NOT a part of Christian doctrine (except for the Judaizers).
Let everyone understand; Jesus does not teach the Sabbath of Moses any more than he teaches ritual circumcision or the Easter Bunny.
1Cor. 9:21 to those who are without law, as without law, though not being without the law of God but under the law of Christ, so that I might win those who are without law.
Gal. 5:2 ¶ Behold I, Paul, say to you that if you receive circumcision, Christ will be of no benefit to you.
Gal. 5:3 And I testify again to every man who receives circumcision, that he is under obligation to keep the whole Law.
Gal. 5:4 You have been severed from Christ, you who are seeking to be justified by law; you have fallen from grace.
Seth said: For it is not those who hear the law who are righteous in God’s sight, but it is those who obey the law who will be declared righteous.
-Romans 2:13. And yet no one will be justified by the works of another Law known simply as “the Law.” The key to understanding this is knowing that one Law–the 613 “handwriting decrees” or “commandments in ordinances”–was placed outside the Ark and the Covenant Law was set indside the Ark.
The one inside of the Ark is in heaven as we speak (Rev. 11:19; 15:5). God also had two sets of the Covenant Law placed inside of the Ark. The broken set represented the carnal covenant — because the flesh is not subject to the spiritual Law of God nor can it be. So fleshly Israel was predestined to break that covenant no matter how much effort they put in the flesh.
The unbroken set represents the spiritual covenant — the one where God writes His law not on tablets of stone, but rather on the tablet of our heart, so that we will be complelled to obey His Laws. A Law called “the Law” was added because of transgressions, said Paul. Yet Paul also said “where there is no Law there is no transgression.” You do the math, friend.
There is a spiritual Law and a carnal Law. The Mosaic Law is called carnal in Hebrews 7 and 9 I believe and Paul calls the Covenant Law spiritual somewhere in the book of Romans. So that on ots own right tells us that there are two laws in play. We are not under the full Law of Moses and all its carnal ordinances – – that was the subject of Galatians.
Tom said: Your defense of OC law over the Gospel is wrong. The 10C’s are OC law. They do not apply to anyone but an OC Jew. By contrast, what Jesus teaches is Gospel law for all Christians, both Jew and Gentile. Jesus does not, not, not, teach the 4th Commandment as some claim. Read the Gospels and see for yourself.
Seth said: And yet we know that God is a Spirit and we know that that same Spirit rested on the seventh day — therefore, the seventh day provides spiritual rest and is a part of the spiritual Law.
Tom said: Jesus debates the Sabbath over and over in the Gospels. His words, which are full of the Spirit, do not include a defense of the 4th Commandment. Rather, he teaches an active, guilt free, NC, 7th day Sabbath. He did not teach it was holy or for rest. It was for worship and activity. Let everyone learn the Gospel Sabbath directly from Christ and repent for being so wrong for so long…
Rev. 3:16 ‘So because you are lukewarm, and neither hot nor cold, I will spit you out of My mouth.
Rev. 3:17 ‘Because you say, “I am rich, and have become wealthy, and have need of nothing,” and you do not know that you are wretched and miserable and poor and blind and naked,
Seth said: I would also like to say for the record that the true Gospel is the current arrival of the Sovereign kingdom of God through the Covenantal Blood of Christ. A divine and Soveriegn Kingdom is established on the divine and Soveriegn commandments of a Divine and Soveriegn Monarch — not the lawlessness of anarchy.
Tom said: Jesus infuriated the Jews because he taught a working, guilt free Sabbath. How can such a point be missed? Moreover, while Jesus broke the 4th commandment, he was careful to teach all manner of instruction about how to live, including his active guilt free Sabbath. He was not lawless. But the Law of Moses did not bind him. He is greater than Moses, even the Lord of the NC Sabbath.
Luke 6:5 And He was saying to them, “The Son of Man is Lord of the Sabbath.
Seth said: Christ did not die so that we could stay in sin (transgression of the Law) so that Grace would abound — on the contrary, God literally has forbidden this kind of behavior. Jesus came to save us from our sins (Matt. 1:21) not merely and exclusively the consequences thereof, like most teach. I hope this helps.
Tom said: Your assumption that OC Sabbath breaking in the NC is sinful is not correct. Remember, the OC priests broke the 4th Commandment every week and were guiltless. Why is it so hard to understand that Jesus teaches an active, guilt free, 7th day Sabbath for the priestly believers that follow him? Jesus made it clear that those Jews who defended the 4th Commandment and rejected his active, reformed Sabbath were fighting against God and the Gospel. They were BLIND to the Gospel and full of SIN.
John 9:39 And Jesus said, “For judgment I came into this world, so that those who do not see may see, and that those who see may become blind.”
John 9:40 Those of the Pharisees who were with Him heard these things and said to Him, “We are not blind too, are we?”
John 9:41 Jesus said to them, “If you were blind, you would have no sin; but since you say, ‘We see,’ your sin remains.
The church today misunderstands the Gospel Sabbath. There is no such thing as a Sunday Sabbath or Lord’s day, nor is the church to follow the 4th Commandment, which did not even apply to the Temple priests. What Jesus teaches about the active and guilt-free 7th day Sabbath is what the church must follow. When the church correctly understands the Gospel, they will also comprehend the correct Gospel Sabbath of Christ.
Luke 6:46 “Why do you call Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ and do not do what I say?
I hope this helps.
See: http://www.atomorrow.org/fluxbb/viewtopic.php?id=228
Tom Norris, for the Gospel Sabbath of Christ
Seth Hall says June 11, 2018 at 6:02 pm
Seth said: There is no “Gospel Sabbath,” nor is there a specific “Christian Sabbath.” These terms are myths as well. There is just simply “the Sabbath.” The Sabbath was made for all of mankind (Mark 2:27) and *any* man who keeps it will be blessed (Isaiah 56:2).The Gentiles who bind themselves to the Body of the Lord should not think that God will exclude them from the duties of His people (Isaiah 56:3) because we too are Gods chosen people (Col. 3:12) — for not everyone who descended from Israel is Israel.
Tom said: Of course there is a New Covenant, 7th day, Gospel Sabbath. There was also an Old Covenant Sabbath as well. They are not the same doctrine. One forbids work under penalty of death. The other promotes worship and allows activity and work.
Seth said: The Sabbath was made for every image of God so that God’s images might fully reflect the full image of God — for this is the sole duty of mankind (Eccl. 12:13) not just the Jews.
Tom said: There were two types of Sabbath in OC Judaism. Breaking the 4th Commandment was a capital offense. But the priests that worked on the Sabbath were guiltless. So there are two very different Sabbath doctrines. Why is this fact ignored? Moreover, Jesus teaches his own version of the priestly Sabbath for all mankind. This can be found in all four Gospels. He is not teaching Sunday Sabbath or the 4th Commandment.
Seth said: The Sabbath is the most important and most moral commandment of all time! How, one must ask. How can the Sabbath be the most moral commandment in the Law?
Tom said: First off, which of the two doctrines of the OC Sabbath is most important? Second, the 10 C’s are part of the OC, not the NC. What Jesus teaches is NC law for the church. Christians do NOT follow Moses; only Jesus.
Seth said: I’ll tell you: We are to keep one day holy so that we might learn to be holy and blameless everyday, for Jesus is coming back for the true church without spot or blemish.
Tom said: The true church will not be following the OC Sabbath Law. Sorry. Jesus does not teach that the NC Sabbath is holy. This is Judaism, not the Gospel.
Seth said: How do we walk blamelessly? David said Blessed is the man whose walk is blameless; who walks according to the Law of the Lord (Psalm 119:1).
Tom said: Quoting from the OC to support the NC is out of bounds. You must show Jesus teaching how important it is to keep the Sabbath holy and free from any work IN THE GOSPELS. But you can’t do that because it did not happen. It was the enemies of Christ that declared that the 4th Commandment must be carefully obeyed, not Christ.
Luke 6:2 But some of the Pharisees said, “Why do you do what is not lawful on the Sabbath?”
Seth said: Indeed, we keep one day holy so that we can learn to be holy and blameless everyday — and yet the day is indeed of dire importance because this is a matter of faithfulness, obedience, and diligent imitation of God. We are called to be imitators of God (Eph. 5:1). How can we do that if we ignore the Testimony of His character? How is that Christian?
Tom said: You misunderstand the law and the Gospel, like so many that misunderstand the Sabbath teachings of Christ. Christians are saved by faith in Christ’s teaching about eternal life. Not by keeping the law. NC Gospel Faith, not OC law keeping, is salvific. When the Gospel is correctly understood, so too the active and guilt free NC Sabbath.
Seth said: If you truly respect the Sabbath and fear the Lord and His righteous need to judge transgression, then you will be compelled to keep the Sabbath completely holy (sinless and set apart from the other six days in every way).
Tom said: As Jesus was debating his NC Sabbath; he would often push back against his critics by speaking about the Judgment. Contrary to your view, he condemned those that refused to embrace his Gospel Sabbath.
John 5:22 “For not even the Father judges anyone, but He has given all judgment to the Son,
John 5:23 so that all will honor the Son even as they honor the Father. He who does not honor the Son does not honor the Father who sent Him.
John 5:24 “Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life.
John 5:25 “Truly, truly, I say to you, an hour is coming and now is, when the dead will hear the voice of the Son of God, and those who hear will live.
All need to read the many Sabbath debates recorded in the Gospels. According to Jesus, his active, guilt free New Covenant Sabbath is a Gospel test. The Jews failed, and so too the entire church today.
John 9:39 And Jesus said, “For judgment I came into this world, so that those who do not see may see, and that those who see may become blind.”
I respect the teachings of Christ about the Sabbath and everything else. But I have come to understand that few have any idea what Jesus is teaching about the Sabbath. Which is why there is every wind of Sabbath doctrine blowing in the church, especially the Sunday Sabbath, which is a theological impossibility.
Let everyone understand; Jesus does not teach a passive, resting Sabbath. He teaches an active, guilt free 7th day Sabbath where worship takes place and so too work. Gone are the OC rules about not lighting fire, cooking, or walking too far, etc. The Gospel Sabbath represents freedom from the OC law and spiritual rest in Christ, the Lord of the Sabbath.
Seth said: For if you transgress the other nine commandments on that day you are condemned as a double transgressor. Yet there is now no condemnation for those ABIDING in Christ (the Vine; the Word).
Tom said: It was the Gospel hating Jews that claimed it was sinful to be active on the Sabbath, not Jesus. The Jews were outraged that Jesus was teaching people to break the 4th Commandment:
John 5:10 So the Jews were saying to the man who was cured, “It is the Sabbath, and it is not permissible for you to carry your pallet.”
John 5:11 But he answered them, “He who made me well was the one who said to me, ‘Pick up your pallet and walk.’”
You are obsessed with the law instead of the teachings of Christ.
Moreover, the NC Sabbath allows all manner of work without condemnation or sin. Which is why the Gentiles could join the church. They were not taught to obey the 4th Commandment as if they were Jews (except by the Judaizers). Read Galatians and understand that OC law, which was seen by Paul as a temporary Tutor, has been abolished. The law of Christ has replaced it.
Gal. 3:24 Therefore the Law has become our tutor to lead us to Christ, so that we may be justified by faith.
Gal. 3:25 But now that faith has come, we are no longer under a tutor.
Whatever Jesus teaches about the Sabbath, is what his followers must embrace.
Matt. 10:24 “A disciple is not above his teacher, nor a slave above his master.
Seth said: The Sabbath is our model to learn how to repent and abstain from sin in the power of the Lord. It is our model for true holiness. This is why Isaiah compared keeping the Sabbath to abstaining from all evil (Isaiah 56:2).
Tom said: First, Christ is our model, not any OC law.
Second, you need to quote Jesus the Lord of the Sabbath, to support any NC view of the Sabbath. Quoting from the OC is not sufficient because the NC is far superior to the OC. The words of Jesus and his apostles surpass Moses and the OT. (See Heb 1)
Moreover, the 4th Commandment is not a model for anyone but an OC Jew. Any Christians that embrace it are foolish Judaizers. They need to understand the book of Galatians and repent.
Seth said: The Sabbath even reveals idols in our life. Are you willing to deny yourself and give up your own ways, your own pleasures, and your own words for a specified 24 hours for God’s sake? Are you willing to give up things like electricity, running water, driving cars, using money, and other such secular events and activities during the duration of your Friday night/Saturday?
Tom said: A person’s view of the Sabbath often reveals legalism in the Sabbatarians and anti-Semitism in the Sunday keepers. The Sabbath is a reflection of ones view of the Gospel. Most all have a false view.
Seth said: If you cannot give these things up for a certain day so as to focus strictly on the presence of God, then you have allowed, in all honesty, things that are non-necessities to become gods that run your life!
Tom said: The NC Sabbath is not punitive or focused on law or guilt. Rather, it is a gift from Jesus to the Gospel believer. It represents freedom from the OC law, which many do not like. It is also not a doctrine of penance, nor is it a test of obedience to the law. Many, like the SDA’s, have made the Sabbath an idol, even a god. They think they are better than all others because they pretend to keep the 4th Commandment. The OC Sabbath is not to be kept in the NC church. To try and do so is a rejection of Christ, the Lord of the active and guilt free, NC Sabbath.
Seth said: The Sabbath gives us rest from the secular events and activities that enslave us during our week. It allows us to recharge and focus on what is truly important: God.
Tom said: Jesus never “rested” on the Sabbath (except when he was dead). Nor did he teach his followers to do so. Such a holy fact pattern cannot be ignored. Over and over the Gospels record Jesus Sabbath teaching and behavior, and never once did he claim that the 7th Day demands rest from work. In fact, he said the opposite and claimed that this was also the position of God, his father.
John 5:15 The man went away, and told the Jews that it was Jesus who had made him well.
John 5:16 For this reason the Jews were persecuting Jesus, because He was doing these things on the Sabbath.
John 5:17 But He answered them, “My Father is working until now, and I Myself am working.”
John 5:18 For this reason therefore the Jews were seeking all the more to kill Him, because He not only was breaking the Sabbath, but also was calling God His own Father, making Himself equal with God.
John 5:19 Therefore Jesus answered and was saying to them, “Truly, truly, I say to you, the Son can do nothing of Himself, unless it is something He sees the Father doing; for whatever the Father does, these things the Son also does in like manner.
John 5:20 “For the Father loves the Son, and shows Him all things that He Himself is doing; and the Father will show Him greater works than these, so that you will marvel.
John 5:30 “I can do nothing on My own initiative. As I hear, I judge; and My judgment is just, because I do not seek My own will, but the will of Him who sent Me.
Pay attention: Every Sabbath of Jesus ministry was full of worship, activity, fellowship and Gospel debate, as well as work that was not permitted under the 4th Commandment. No rest. Read the four Gospels and see for yourself.
Seth said: The Sabbath allows us to take a minute and ponder upon the wonders of Creation and to remember and glorify the One who Created everything around us. It allows us to remember our Deliverer and how He delivered us from the spiritual land of sin and death and out of the bondage thereof. It is an essential part of our walk guys! Do not stiffen your neck. The stiffer the neck, the easier it is to break in two!
Tom said: The active and guilt free, New Covenant Sabbath of Christ includes worshiping God and his Son. It also includes Gospel fellowship and rejoicing for our salvation and learning more about the Bible, etc. These are all good things that should be part of every 7th day Gospel Sabbath. I am not saying otherwise. However, it is also no sin for any Christian to cook food, travel, move furniture, work at their job, or take a nap. The 4th Commandment has no power over anyone that is in Christ. There is no such thing as breaking the NC Sabbath by work. It is not a resting, passive doctrine like in the OC. It is active and free, a living metaphor for the Gospel of Christ, the Lord of the Sabbath.
Gal. 5:1 It was for freedom that Christ set us free; therefore keep standing firm and do not be subject again to a yoke of slavery.
Gal. 5:2 Behold I, Paul, say to you that if you receive circumcision, Christ will be of no benefit to you.
Gal. 5:3 And I testify again to every man who receives circumcision, that he is under obligation to keep the whole Law. (INCLUDING THE 4TH COMMANDMENT)
Gal. 5:4 You have been severed from Christ, you who are seeking to be justified by law; you have fallen from grace.
There is a weekly Christian Sabbath for the church, and it is not on Sunday. It can only be on the 7th day. But this New Covenant Sabbath is not the same as the Old Covenant Sabbath of Moses. Same day– but different doctrine, which can only be found in the Sabbath teachings of Christ, not Moses.
Today, the entire church, both Catholic and Protestant, Sabbatarians and Sunday keepers alike, misunderstand the Gospel and New Covenant Sabbath. This must be corrected, which in turn will expose those that are truly willing to follow Christ and those that are just pretending.
Luke 6:46 “Why do you call Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ and do not do what I say?
John 10:27 “My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me;
It is time for serious Gospel Reform in the church. And this starts with Sabbath Reform.
I hope this helps,
Tom Norris for honest Gospel Reform
http://www.atomorrow.org/fluxbb/viewtopic.php?id=836
Hi Tom,
Thanks for your response. I highly disagree with just about everything you said, though.
I would also like to point out that you ignored most of what I said, and you especially ignored many of my greatest points and kept using the same arguements that I already refuted (like the fact that Holy work and secular work are not the same thing. This is why Jesus said God has guiltlessly “always been at His [HOLY] work to this very day,” (John 5:17), but yet we know that since the seventh day “His [SECULAR] works have been finished since the creation of the world.” (Hebrews 4:3). Jesus never did secular work on the Sabbath. He always did the very holy work of healing and heralding the Word of God, which is keeping the Sabbath **holy**. Holiness does not defile the holiness of the Sabbath)
The things I spoke of are all things that I have experienced for myself, because God said that those who keep His commandments hav good understanding (Psalm 111:10; 119:98; Proverbs 1:7; Job 28:28; Deuteronomy 4:6). The proof is in the pudding. I will let the discerning discern knowledge and I will let those who were meant to be captured go into the captivity of their transgression.
By the Grace of God, I could take the time to refute all of your points, but I really don’t think it would matter, because your mind seems quite made up, so I will respectfully decline.
Although I will address your last statement:
Today, the entire church, both Catholic and Protestant, Sabbatarians and Sunday keepers alike, misunderstand the Gospel and New Covenant Sabbath. This must be corrected, which in turn will expose those that are truly willing to follow Christ and those that are just pretending.
Let me just ask: If everything you have said is in fact true, then for what reason must this issue be corrected? Why can’t everyone just have a guilt free Sabbath like you and just not worry about it? Why does this issue matter at all if there is truly no way we could ever possibly break the type of Sabbath in which you present? And even if transgressing such a Sabbath was even possible, then what are the consequences for breaking this “Guilt-free Sabbath” anyway? In other words, why do you present this as such a dire issue, but then take away everything about it that could be presented as an issue?
Of course someone who regularly transgresses the Sabbath is going to relentlessly contend for a “guiltless Sabbath” — how else could such a person feel secure in spitting on their Creator?
Do you know what will expose those who are truly willing to IMITATE CHRIST? Those who keep the Sabbath without desecrating it and keep their foot from doing any evil; those that give up everything they own to become disciples of Christ (Luke 14:33). For materialism is idolatry and no idolater shall inherit the kingdom of God. And yet I identified how to purge Idolatry in Christ through obedience to His Word. Blessed are those who not only hear the Word, but also do it.
Why am I not allowed to post a reply? Why are you censoring a serious discussion about the doctrine of the Sabbath? Sad.
Hey Norris, I’m not censoring you all. Please feel free to reply to whoever you want.
Seth said: Hi Tom, Thanks for your response. I highly disagree with just about everything you said, though. I would also like to point out that you ignored most of what I said,
Tom replied: I did not mean to ignore any meaningful points, so please forgive. Will try to address all of your issues. Truth can afford to be open and transparent, while error lives in the shadows of doubletalk and denial of facts.
Seth said: and you especially ignored many of my greatest points and kept using the same arguments that I already refuted (like the fact that Holy work and secular work are not the same thing.
Tom said: You have refuted nothing. Work is work. Lighting a fire is work regardless where it takes place. So too cooking, cleaning, and all other activates. Work and rest are opposites. Those priests that worked in the Temple on the 7th day had all manner of “secular” work to do, –the same work they did every other day- take care of the fire, sacrifice animals, clean, dress and cook the meat and prepare meals, etc. The Temple was a huge commercial enterprise where many were employed to do all manner of “secular” work, like security, and exchanging money, etc. Here is a link about Temple activity:
http://www.templeinstitute.org/main.htm
http://www.templeinstitute.org/day_in_life/24_shifts.ht
Moreover, it was Jesus who said that the priests do secular work on the Sabbath, but yet, they remain guilt free. So your debate is with Jesus, not me. Your “greatest point” is not valid. Sorry.
Pay attention: Jesus did not say that the Priests were doing holy Temple work on the Sabbath and therefore innocent. No, he acknowledged that they “broke the Sabbath law” by doing regular, “secular” work, which was not permitted under the 4th Commandment. In other words, the Priests were not under the 4th Commandment. Here is a clear point—from Christ– that defeats your position, which you thought impregnable.
Matt. 12:5 “Or have you not read in the Law, that on the Sabbath the priests in the temple break the Sabbath and are innocent?
Jesus was not a Levite. He had no permission to do any work on the Sabbath; not by healing, or making medicine to treat a patient, or making a fire, etc. He refused to obey the 4th Commandment for all to see.
To underscore this point, he instructed a healed Jew to pick up his bed and walk around town for all to see on the Sabbath. Why such instruction to publicly break the Sabbath? Because Jesus was teaching an active, NC Sabbath doctrine. He was not promoting or following the OC Sabbath of Moses.
Pay attention: Jesus knew that moving furniture on the Sabbath was sinful under the 4th Commandment. But he ordered it to be done anyway for all to see.
John 5:8 Jesus said to him, “Get up, pick up your pallet and walk.”
John 5:9 Immediately the man became well, and picked up his pallet and began to walk. Now it was the Sabbath on that day.
John 5:10 So the Jews were saying to the man who was cured, “It is the Sabbath, and it is not permissible for you to carry your pallet.”
No amount of double-talk and spin can explain away what is taking place. Jesus is promoting a very different view of the NC Sabbath for all to see. Only a blind person could miss the point.
Seth said: This is why Jesus said God has guiltlessly “always been at His [HOLY] work to this very day,” (John 5:17), but yet we know that since the seventh day “His [SECULAR] works have been finished since the creation of the world.” (Hebrews 4:3). Jesus never did secular work on the Sabbath. He always did the very holy work of healing and heralding the Word of God, which is keeping the Sabbath **holy**. Holiness does not defile the holiness of the Sabbath)
Tom said: This idea that Jesus only did good on the Sabbath, and thus that is fine with the law is non-sense. Work is work, and any of it was a violation of the 4th Commandment unless you were a priest. Being a healer was a profession. It was work. There were no passes in the law for healers to break the 4th Commandment, unless they were a Levite. Moses stoned a man for gathering wood on the Sabbath to start a fire and keep his family warm. But the law does not allow for such good excuses.
Ex. 31:14 ‘Therefore you are to observe the sabbath, for it is holy to you. Everyone who profanes it shall surely be put to death; for whoever does any work on it, that person shall be cut off from among his people.
Ex. 31:15 ‘For six days work may be done, but on the seventh day there is a sabbath of complete rest, holy to the LORD; whoever does any work on the sabbath day shall surely be put to death.
Of course Jesus did good on the 7th day, so too on all the other 6 days as well. But if you look at Jesus Sabbath healings, none of them were necessary emergencies. They all could have waited for the next day. But Jesus was making a point. He was teaching an active, guilt free NC Sabbath doctrine. He was not teaching the 4th Commandment or Sunday Lord’s day. Jesus did not rest on the 7th day, much less “complete rest.”
Luke 13:14 But the synagogue official, indignant because Jesus had healed on the Sabbath, began saying to the crowd in response, “There are six days in which work should be done; so come during them and get healed, and not on the Sabbath day.”
To further disprove your position, note that Jesus allowed his disciples to break the Sabbath by gathering food, a “secular” activity. The Jews had learned the hard way that they were not allowed to gather food, (manna), on the 7th day. This was a well-known story. But Jesus breaks the Sabbath law by permitting the gathering food on the 7th day. Such action, again, clearly violated OC law. But Jesus was teaching NC doctrine; the OC had to be replaced with the NC law, hence the conflict.
Ex. 16:22 Now on the sixth day they gathered twice as much bread, two omers for each one. When all the leaders of the congregation came and told Moses,
Ex. 16:23 then he said to them, “This is what the LORD meant: Tomorrow is a sabbath observance, a holy sabbath to the LORD. Bake what you will bake and boil what you will boil, and all that is left over put aside to be kept until morning.”
Ex. 16:24 So they put it aside until morning, as Moses had ordered, and it did not become foul nor was there any worm in it.
Ex. 16:25 Moses said, “Eat it today, for today is a sabbath to the LORD; today you will not find it in the field.
Ex. 16:26 “Six days you shall gather it, but on the seventh day, the sabbath, there will be none.”
Ex. 16:27 It came about on the seventh day that some of the people went out to gather, but they found none.
Ex. 16:28 Then the LORD said to Moses, “How long do you refuse to keep My commandments and My instructions?
Ex. 16:29 “See, the LORD has given you the sabbath; therefore He gives you bread for two days on the sixth day. Remain every man in his place; let no man go out of his place on the seventh day.”
Ex. 16:30 So the people rested on the seventh day.
Compare this story to Jesus disciples gathering food on the Sabbath:
Matt. 12:1 At that time Jesus went through the grainfields on the Sabbath, and His disciples became hungry and began to pick the heads of grain and eat.
Matt. 12:2 But when the Pharisees saw this, they said to Him, “Look, Your disciples do what is not lawful to do on a Sabbath.”
No wonder the Jews were angry about Christ’s new view of the Sabbath. They were determined to follow Moses, not Jesus. They did not understand, nor did they want anything to do with Jesus’ New Covenant teachings, especially about the Priesthood and the Sabbath.
John 5:18 For this reason therefore the Jews were seeking all the more to kill Him, because He not only was breaking the Sabbath, but also was calling God His own Father, making Himself equal with God.
John 7:1 After these things Jesus was walking in Galilee, for He was unwilling to walk in Judea because the Jews were seeking to kill Him.
John 9:26 So they said to him, “What did He do to you? How did He open your eyes?”
John 9:27 He answered them, “I told you already and you did not listen; why do you want to hear it again? You do not want to become His disciples too, do you?”
John 9:28 They reviled him and said, “You are His disciple, but we are disciples of Moses.
John 9:29 “We know that God has spoken to Moses, but as for this man, we do not know where He is from.”
The Jews refused to believe Christ, and what you see in the Gospels is a clash between the OC Sabbath and the NC Sabbath. Only one Sabbath can win this debate. The NC is superior to the OC, and so too the active and guilt free Gospel Sabbath of Christ.
Seth said: The things I spoke of are all things that I have experienced for myself, because God said that those who keep His commandments have good understanding (Psalm 111:10; 119:98; Proverbs 1:7; Job 28:28; Deuteronomy 4:6). The proof is in the pudding. I will let the discerning discern knowledge and I will let those who were meant to be captured go into the captivity of their transgression.
Tom said: This Sabbath discussion is not about our personal views, opinions, or personal experience. Rather, it is all about what Jesus, the Lord of the Sabbath, teaches. True knowledge is about Jesus and the Gospel, not the law.
Heb. 1:1 God, after He spoke long ago to the fathers in the prophets in many portions and in many ways,
Heb. 1:2 in these last days has spoken to us in His Son, whom He appointed heir of all things, through whom also He made the world.
Mark 9:7 Then a cloud formed, overshadowing them, and a voice came out of the cloud, “This is My beloved Son, listen to Him!”
1Cor. 1:30 But by His doing you are in Christ Jesus, who became to us wisdom from God, and righteousness and sanctification, and redemption,
Seth said: By the Grace of God, I could take the time to refute all of your points, but I really don’t think it would matter, because your mind seems quite made up, so I will respectfully decline.
Tom said: Don’t fool yourself. God does not give anyone grace to attack the Gospel. You have not refuted any point, much less made a case for not using electricity on the 7th day. Moreover, your textual support is primarily from the OC, not the NC, which is very wrong. Why do you run from Jesus many discussions about his NC Sabbath? Why do you ignore the plain teachings of Christ about his active and guilt free 7th day Sabbath? Are you blind, like the Pharisees? They too could not comprehend Jesus Gospel Sabbath—just like you.
John 9:39 And Jesus said, “For judgment I came into this world, so that those who do not see may see, and that those who see may become blind.”
John 9:40 Those of the Pharisees who were with Him heard these things and said to Him, “We are not blind too, are we?”
John 9:41 Jesus said to them, “If you were blind, you would have no sin; but since you say, ‘We see,’ your sin remains.
My mind is convinced that we should take Jesus at his word and follow what he teaches in all things, not just the Sabbath.
Luke 6:40 “A pupil is not above his teacher; but everyone, after he has been fully trained, will be like his teacher.
The Sabbath is a good test to see who is paying attention to Jesus’ NC teachings. Many embrace Moses and the OC, pretending they are following Jesus. But it is a delusion. They are blind to the Gospel, following a false Christ that cannot save.
Continued in next post
Seth said: Although I will address your last statement:
“Today, the entire church, both Catholic and Protestant, Sabbatarians and Sunday keepers alike, misunderstand the Gospel and New Covenant Sabbath. This must be corrected, which in turn will expose those that are truly willing to follow Christ and those that are just pretending.”
Let me just ask: If everything you have said is in fact true, then for what reason must this issue be corrected?
Tom said: Jesus states that the last church (Laodicea) is blind to the Gospel, wretched and naked– doctrinally speaking. He further charges the church to repent for their false doctrines, which includes the many false and confused views of the Sabbath that prevail in the church today.
Rev. 3:15 ‘I know your deeds, that you are neither cold nor hot; I wish that you were cold or hot.
Rev. 3:16 ‘So because you are lukewarm, and neither hot nor cold, I will spit you out of My mouth.
Rev. 3:17 ‘Because you say, “I am rich, and have become wealthy, and have need of nothing,” and you do not know that you are wretched and miserable and poor and blind and naked,
Rev. 3:19 ‘Those whom I love, I reprove and discipline; therefore be zealous and repent.
The Church needs to repent. The Sabbath is a good place to start Gospel Reform. Sunday is an impossible fraud, and so too what the Sabbatarians teach. The Gospel Sabbath is unknown to the church today.
Seth said: Why can’t everyone just have a guilt free Sabbath like you and just not worry about it?
Tom said: Anyone can choose to follow Christ if they want, and thus embrace the Gospel Sabbath. The real issue is this: are we following the genuine Christ or an imposter? Only the real Christ saves, not the law or any Sabbath doctrine.
Mark 13:22 for false Christs and false prophets will arise, and will show signs and wonders, in order to lead astray, if possible, the elect.
Matt. 7:15 “Beware of the false prophets, who come to you in sheep’s clothing, but inwardly are ravenous wolves.
Seth said: Why does this issue matter at all if there is truly no way we could ever possibly break the type of Sabbath in which you present?
Tom said: The best way to “break” the Gospel Sabbath is to not believe it! –like the Pharisees in the 1st century. Those Christians that think the 4th Commandment is binding today, or that Sunday is the Lord’s Day, are breaking and denying the NC, 7th day Sabbath. They are rejecting the Gospel and are as guilty of sin as were the Jews that rejected Jesus Gospel Sabbath. This is not my private opinion, but what Jesus clearly teaches in the Gospels.
John 9:39 And Jesus said, “For judgment I came into this world, so that those who do not see may see, and that those who see may become blind.”
John 9:40 Those of the Pharisees who were with Him heard these things and said to Him, “We are not blind too, are we?”
John 9:41 Jesus said to them, “If you were blind, you would have no sin; but since you say, ‘We see,’ your sin remains.
Seth said: And even if transgressing such a Sabbath was even possible, then what are the consequences for breaking this “Guilt-free Sabbath” anyway?
Tom said: NO ETERNAL LIFE!
John 5:24 “Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life.
John 10:14 “I am the good shepherd, and I know My own and My own know Me,
John 10:26 “But you do not believe because you are not of My sheep.
John 10:27 “My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me;
John 10:28 and I give eternal life to them, and they will never perish; and no one will snatch them out of My hand.
(Note: These words of Christ are in the context of a debate over the Sabbath.)
Seth asked: In other words, why do you present this as such a dire issue, but then take away everything about it that could be presented as an issue?
Tom said: A great question, which deserves a great answer. Here it is: Answer: Because Jesus presents this issue as a matter of life and death, blindness or sight, saved or unsaved. It is Christ who has elevated this Sabbath discussion in every Gospel, making it a “dire issue.” If you don’t like it, complain to Jesus, not me.
John 5:24 “Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life.
Seth said: Of course someone who regularly transgresses the Sabbath is going to relentlessly contend for a “guiltless Sabbath” — how else could such a person feel secure in spitting on their Creator?
Tom said: Many ignore religion altogether because there is so much myth, double-talk and hypocrisy involved. They don’t care about any kind of Sabbath.
Moreover, the legions that claim to follow Christ actually embrace a fraudulent Christ and a false doctrine of the Sabbath. In fact, there is no church or denomination today that understands and follows the correct, 7th day Gospel Sabbath of Christ. Why? Because they do not understand the Gospel or study the Word to find truth. Their false view of the Sabbath proves they are not listening to Christ in the Gospels.
There is no such person as a Sunday keeping Jesus or a 4th Commandment keeping Jesus. Such Christs are mythical figures, not to be found in the Gospels.
John 5:39 “You search the Scriptures because you think that in them you have eternal life; it is these that testify about Me;
John 5:40 and you are unwilling to come to Me so that you may have life.
(Note context: John 5 is one of many Sabbath debates)
Seth said: Do you know what will expose those who are truly willing to IMITATE CHRIST?
Tom said: Eternal life is granted to those that believe in Christ by faith. Not to those that try to imitate him or follow the OC law. Jesus never rested on the Sabbath, nor did he ever charge anyone with Sabbath breaking. It was the Jews that accused Christ of being a Sabbath breaker. They did not like any of his proposed NC reforms to Judaism, especially his active, guilt free Sabbath.
Nor did the Lord of the Sabbath ever teach that the 7th day is holy and requires rest, much less that it is sinful to work on the Sabbath. Christ condemned those Jews that refused Jesus active, NC Sabbath as evil unbelievers. To reject Jesus NC Sabbath was to reject God and the Gospel. Are you sure this is what you want to do?
John 10:25 Jesus answered them, “I told you, and you do not believe; the works that I do in My Father’s name, these testify of Me.
John 10:26 “But you do not believe because you are not of My sheep.
John 14:23 Jesus answered and said to him, “If anyone loves Me, he will keep My word; and My Father will love him, and We will come to him and make Our abode with him.
John 14:24 “He who does not love Me does not keep My words; and the word which you hear is not Mine, but the Father’s who sent Me.
Seth said: Those who keep the Sabbath without desecrating it and keep their foot from doing any evil; those that give up everything they own to become disciples of Christ (Luke 14:33).
Tom said: Pay attention: Jesus did NOT teach his disciples to obey the 4th Commandment.
So it is wrong to pretend he did.
Why are you not being honest with the recorded teachings of Jesus in the NT?
Both the Sunday keepers and the Sabbatarians have embraced wretched and very false Gospel theology. There is no Eternal Life for those that spit in the face of Christ and take the same evil positions, as did his anti-Gospel enemies.
Matt. 12:2 But when the Pharisees saw this, they said to Him, “Look, Your disciples do what is not lawful to do on a Sabbath.”
Matt. 7:26 “Everyone who hears these words of Mine and does not 1act on them, will be like a foolish man who built his house on the sand.
Matt. 7:27 “The rain fell, and the floods came, and the winds blew and slammed against that house; and it fell — and great was its fall.”
Matt. 7:28 When Jesus had finished these words, the crowds were amazed at His teaching;
Seth said: For materialism is idolatry and no idolater shall inherit the kingdom of God. And yet I identified how to purge Idolatry in Christ through obedience to His Word. Blessed are those who not only hear the Word, but also do it.
Tom said. The Words of Christ are greater than the Word of Moses. The genuine Good Shepherd can be identified by his 7th day, Gospel Sabbath. Both John 9 and 10 are the longest of all the Sabbath debates. The good shepherd brand is directly linked to the NC Sabbath that Christ promoted.
John 10:11 “I am the good shepherd; the good shepherd lays down His life for the sheep.
Pay attention: The NT clearly shows that Christ did not teach the 4th Commandment, much less a Sunday Sabbath. Blessed are those that can understand this holy fact pattern. Those that refuse to embrace Jesus’ active and guilt free 7th day Sabbath, will share the same fate as the Jews that also refused to believe.
John 3:36 “He who believes in the Son has eternal life; but he who does not obey the Son will not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him.”
John 10:27 “My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me;
John 10:28 and I give eternal life to them, and they will never perish; and no one will snatch them out of My hand.
John 10:19 A division occurred again among the Jews because of these words.
John 10:20 Many of them were saying, “He has a demon and is insane. Why do you listen to Him?”
John 10:21 Others were saying, “These are not the sayings of one demon-possessed. A demon cannot open the eyes of the blind, can he?”
It is time for the church, regardless of denomination, to stop playing games with the words and teaching of Christ. The lesson of the Jews should not be forgotten. They were destroyed because they refused to embrace the NC views of Christ, which featured his active, guilt free, 7th day Sabbath.
John 3:36 “He who believes in the Son has eternal life; but he who does not obey the Son will not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him.”
I hope this helps,
Tom Norris for Gospel Reform
Those Levites were exempted because of the duties required at temple. They didn’t do private work for profit. I’m sure they wasn’t alowed to indulge in commercial business. So you wrong in using them as example. Remember only Israel mattered back then……Judea and Jerusalem. You should be aware God required non Israelis to follow the Commandments whilst in Jerusalem or around Israel. Similarly a Gentile conversing to christendom is required, learn and obey the Laws and TEN Commandments. The Olive tree comparison in NT! If a pagan(wild olive) is grafted into Original Israel(Olive)……he,she certainly have to obey same rules or will just be rejected again. Yehosua did NOT came to abolished anything other than PRIDE, HYPOCRISY AND ABUSE OF LAWS…….HE CAME TO CONFIRM THE ORIGINAL.
Greetings. Came across this article in doing research and studying for a special writing project that I hope turns into a book. I have the 1950’s movie “Martin Luther” and watch various parts of it over and over as a part of this study and research, since even at the beginning it is firmly stated the importance of historical accuracy to the people who put together the movie. This debate at Leipzig has a small portion of the movie.
Doesn’t really bug me that this article and this ocean of comments are a long time prior to when I’m here in April 2023, since the reflections I wish to offer are in line with an aspect of this debate, and Martin’s incorrect perception of having lost it, that no comments have been written about but which I believe is more important than going back and forth about all these different views on The Law and The Sabbath that this ocean of comments are about.
The side of this debate which is the side of truth being defended by Martin, is always on the defensive rather than the offensive, in control and in charge, which is how it should have been. It’s a too commonly unfortunate happening, that the person who genuinely cares about truth and believing truth in their mind and spirit, neglects to see the truth that it really is OK to be in control and in charge and to put the other side of the issue/debate/whatever on the defensive, cowering into a corner and ever-so-feebly looking for a way to crawl out.
Dr. Johann Eck — his actual name, not “John”, but only after he changed his last name from “Maier” to “Eck” because of the village he was born in — is a cuckoo pathetic joke of a theologian because his entire defense and strength is in a human-made denomination and the human-made policies and rules of that human-made denomination. There is basically zero belief in and strength in a genuine active and alive relationship in his mind and spirit with God by His Spirit. Johann is unsuccessful at refuting with any genuine truth or common sense of true spiritual Godly wisdom, every single aspect brought up by Martin. Johann is a miserable failure in his mentally shallow and spiritually lazy defense of Catholicism and the pope (written with a small-letter ‘P’ on purpose).
It is unfortunate that Martin doesn’t see the truth, or its wisdom, that at *any* of Johann’s failures to successfully refute what Martin says about any of the aspects being debated, Martin could have stopped the debate right there in its tracks and put it to Johann to either successfully defend with Scriptural truth what Johann was saying in opposition to Martin, or else to shut up and secede victory to Martin….just shut up and sit down, or else take the option of shutting up and actually listening to every single word Martin would say about actual real truth of God’s love for humans in opposition to Johann’s insistence on the supremacy of Catholicism and the pope. Just shut up and listen you miserable failure, or else shut up and leave out the door you came in.
End of “so-called discussion”.
But no, it’s been an uncommon unfortunate happening, that people who genuinely care about truth and humbleness and who care about the responsibility of believing truth, are focused so much on the “caring” part that it gets forgotten it really is OK to put it into the shallow face of impatient judgmental irresponsibility, to either defend and correctly justify what it is that you’re saying, or just be quiet and sit down, period, and do it in Jesus’ Name…..but but but….UH UH ZIP IT, in Jesus’ Name, defend and justify with actual real truth, what it is that you’re saying is the truth, or ZIP IT OUT OF ACCEPTANCE THAT YOU HAVEN’T WON IN THE SAME WAY YOU’RE TRYING TO GET ME TO NOT BE ABLE TO ANSWER YOU AND THEREFORE HAVE TO SECEDE VICTORY.
This needs to be realized, experienced, understood, much more in the mind and spirit, as not at all one single bit being hateful or unkind, and it is especially not being irresponsible to truth and not being impatient and judgmental against a debate opponent who themself doesn’t care about truth and doesn’t care about the responsibility of believing truth, but instead cares only about wording things in such a way as to hopefully win by tripping up an opponent to not believe there is a way to answer whatever it is they just said. That motive of caring about only that, is in and of itself, grounds that are perfectly ripe to be targeted and defeated and bringing a “so-called debate” to a very effective end.